No suppressor needed. I only publish load data for loads that I have loaded and shot. AR platform, 8" Wilson Combat barrel, standard gas port size and gas block, obviously pistol lenght gas system, 1-7" twist. Subsonic bullets generally boast a lighter recoil than their speedy relatives, and have an added weight coming to around 180-220 grains in a standard .300 Blackout load. Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited. The source I use for cast bullets uses … How the pressure and the hardness relate to each other is important. Finding cheap military 5.56mm NATO brass to cut down for 300 … At 200 yards, the 60.5 inch bullet drop of a .45 round is similar to a .300 Blackout subsonic round. [ARCHIVED THREAD] - Has anybody tried using cast bullets in their 300 BLK. The .300 Whisper’s throat measures .050, while the 300 BLK measures .100 of an inch. The subsonic 300 Blackout loads are often compared to 45 ACP, 10 mm or 9mm subsonic rounds. In general, most people prefer a self-defense rifle bullet that expands rapidly and doesn’t over-penetrate so that bullets won’t travel through multiple walls or similar structures. My question is this - since I'm shooting subsonic velocities, will the casting process be more forgiving in terms of leading? Gas check or no is a factor. (adsbygoogle = window.adsbygoogle || []).push({}); The Reloaders Network focuses on firearms, shooting sports, reloading, bullet casting, and the related gear and accessories. AR15.COM is the world’s largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types. Identical loading dies are used for both. 230 grain subsonic powder coated cast lead. There is very little data available for this cartridge and I cant find any data for cast loads. (Take care not to let some larger bullets’ ogives get stuck on the first rib of a standard AR’s magazine.) Under these conditions the cost of a 300BLK round with homemade cast bullet is no more than today’s 22s. This showcases the dual purpose of the round. I'd like to cast heavier .30 bullets for use in subsonic loads (I'm in the process of getting my NFA trust in order and then getting a can for my rifle) so I have a cheap supply of bullets for the 300 AAC Blackout. These bullets would open on impact at subsonic velocity and had good terminal effects. Contact Form 7 or GravityForms plugin is required! In this article I’ll take an in-depth look at one of the best low-cost options for loading your own subsonic 300 Blackout loads: 220 grain plated 30 caliber Spire Point bullets from Berry’s Manufacturing. function, feed, and target test success! This thread is about subsonic 300 AAC Blackout using cast, powder coated bullets, in an AR. Gemtech 110-grain TAC-TX. I also like 4227 for subs, but they aren’t as reliable in my X95. Not sure how it would work in a 300 BO AR but I used to load 30.06 "gallery loads", 147gr FMJBT "ball". so far i am getting groups at 100 yards of less than 2 inches with cast, but i have used a hodgepodge of powders including those listed and i forgot i also have some herco and unique. Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more. On the other hand, a supersonic .300 Blackout ammo such as the 124 grain Sellier & Bellot round has a muzzle velocity of 2165 fps and 1285 ft/lbs of muzzle energy, Quest for the perfect load ... Show more.300 AAC Blackout H110 Win 296. 206 Views. These bullets are the best at subsonic speeds. NEW: Sierra Bullets .300 AAC Blackout Reloading Data. Relatively low velocity and lots of molds to choose from. The longer throat allows the safe use of trimmed and sized 5.56mm NATO brass without the malfunctions associated with thicker-walled brass. so far i have only taken it out twice first with jacketed bullets to help remove any tool marks. Another great one is the 357 mag case necked to 30 caliber (great in break action btw)… AND this just gives you a rimmed 300 blk lol. 7.73K Views. I’ve tried both the 300 Blk and 458 Socom versions and managed to catch one of each. Been loading for awhile now but finally got a suppressor and want to start shooting a lot more subsonic. The intent was subsonic loads for close range critters or, if necessary, home defense. From my new build. To avoid it from giving a shooter’s position, subsonic .300 BLK loads use heavier bullets and adjusted powder charges—often tailored for a complete burn in a short barrel. Subsonic loads take advantage of the case’s ability to seat a long, heavy bullet, and typically revolve around projectiles 180 grains and heavier. 300 Blackout 230 GR BER TACT Hodgdon H110 .308" 2.260" 9.0 1,058 32,900 PSI 300 Blackout 230 GR BER TACT Hodgdon Lil'Gun .308" 2.260" 8.2 1,068 30,000 PSI 300 Blackout 230 GR BER TACT IMR IMR 4198 .308" 2.260" 10.8 1,062 27,900 PSI From my new build. Those bullets wouldn't shoot worth a flip normally but on suggestions from a cast-bullet shooter, I loaded them backwards in the case (pointy end … AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own. Lone Wolf 9 Inch 10mm Velocity Increase Glock 40, Gordons Reloading Tool (GRT), How to Start Using. Please go to Appearance > Sidebars and drag a widget into User Submit Sidebar. The 300 Blackout presents a great opportunity to load either subsonic or supersonic. The 200 grain+ bullet loads are designed specifically for subsonic and subsonics are only good for one thing, killing a person quietly at close range with the use of a suppressed rifle. It has since become popular for a wide range of uses including hunting and home defense. 10 Best 300 Blackout Ammo (Subsonic, Hunting, & Bulk) Selecting the caliber for your new sports rifle is just the beginning of selecting which ammo you’re going to use. Tried loading some, but found that the coating along with some lead was being shaved from the bullet while seating. Simple solution… reload! 30 cal bullets in the 220 gr range is expensive! I'll get to it tonight. 300 blackout 1035 fps. These lead cast bullets are made from certified 92-6-2 allo.. I just put together a 300 BLK / AR 15 with a 16" barrel. I have H110, 2400, 3031, Unique and various other powders (but no others I think would be useful for .300 Blackout). It has since become popular for a wide range of uses including hunting and home defense. 100% . Well, there is not much extensive data for reloading either, but Sierra Bullets is trying to help change that. 300 black out, blk out. Jones’s.300 Whisper wildcat. November 27, 2018. My Chrony almost died from the first shot when something, apparently the sabot or a piece of it, hit the display screen. I originally wanted a bullet mold which I could use to cast a heavy 300blk bullet which was easy to cast, coat, load, and shoot for plinking in my 300 blk AR15 at subsonic speeds. By Quest for the perfect load. But they understand how all these factors work together. Paul is very helpful and knowledgeable when it comes to taking care of his customers. By far the most aesthetically-pleasing ammo on this list, Noveske has … 8 Videos. High pressure is a factor. I originally wanted a bullet mold which I could use to cast a heavy 300blk bullet which was easy to cast, coat, load, and shoot for plinking in my 300 blk AR15 at subsonic speeds. SUBSONIC 300 AAC BLACKOUT 220gr SP Manufacturer: Triple R Munitions Condition: Factory Remanufactured Bullet Weight: 220 Grain Bullet Type: Spire Point Ammo Casing: Brass Ammo Caliber: 300 AAC Blackout Primer Type: Boxer Velocity: 1050 Ft/s . ... because it feeds … My question is this - since I'm shooting subsonic velocities, will the casting process be more forgiving in terms of leading? I'd like to keep the bullet subsonic if I can but I think that the next trip to the range will have subsonic as well as supersonic ammo to try. The 200 grain+ bullet loads are designed specifically for subsonic and subsonics are only good for one thing, killing a person quietly at close range with the use of a suppressed rifle. elvis ammoGuns and gear. I will be starting with boolits ranging from 150gr to 200gr. 11 Likes. I was hoping to have some time, but my boss had other ideas. The Blackout allows for the creation of supersonic loads with bullets weighing 90 to 180 grains and subsonic (less than … Quest for the perfect load. Gemtech, widely known for their lineup of quality sound suppressors, is now producing supersonic and subsonic .300 Blackout ammo as well.Their supersonic variety is loaded with Barnes' TAC-TX bullet on factory-new Blackout brass, not re-sized 5.56 cases. and then last week with cast bullets. Since you can work with bullets from 110 grain up to 240 grain in both hypersonic and subsonic loads it boasts tremendous, … Bullet was designed for - .300 Blackout ** GC version used an alloy with CU in it to get it up near 3000fps. Identical loading dies are used for both. It looked like someone had found the answer to this complicated problem. The 300 AAC Blackout (300 BLK) is a popular alternative cartridge in the AR-15/M16 M4 (AR) community. … Casting a bunch of bullets from wheel weights is not even close as far as cost goes. ... even sabots carrying 224 diameter bullets got a 300 BLK ride. All Rights Reserved. I bought a set of dies for 30 … The 300 AAC Blackout (300 BLK, or 7.62x35mm) was created by Advanced Armament Corp. and Remington in order to provide the military with a way to shoot RIFLE RELOADING DATA 1.30 caliber bullets from the M4 platform with only a barrel change. 8 Likes. They recently published updated and expanded data for the .300 AAC Blackout caliber getting into more subsonic and heavier grain weight data; two areas that are typically lacking for information. more brass prep: PREP FOR PRIMERS FAST! I am not a cast bullet expert, but at 1800 fps I think you will  lead the barrel. I'd like to cast heavier .30 bullets for use in subsonic loads (I'm in the process of getting my NFA trust in order and then getting a can for my rifle) so I have a cheap supply of bullets for the 300 AAC Blackout. Hornady fmj-bt, since they are relatively inexpensive. It’s essentially the same as the original .300 Whisper, but the Blackout includes a .015-inch longer throat. This showcases the dual purpose of the round. However, the energy of the .45 at that distance is much less, only 236 ft/lbs. I have not pushed them to supersonic velocities, but it's intriguing enough to work up some loads for it. There are several options available for receiving notifications of new posts to include via email, push notifications, Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, Discord, and more. Even after handloading, I still believe subsonic shooting is the forte of the .300 AAC Blackout—just as J.D. Basically, the 300 AAC Blackout (300 BLK) is a .300 Whisper with a longer chamber throat lead. None yet. A look inside the SIG Sauer V-Crown bullet design, at left is a 300 BLK and to its right is a 9mm Parabellum. By Full.Lead.Taco. Load Data: Case: LC-CB.300, Remington, Wolf(Cut Down) Primer: CCI #400 Small Rifle: Bullet: 152gr Cast Hunter supply .311: Powder: H110 – 15gr: OCL: The powders that are used are often better than those of many OEM … Whether for hunting or general-purpose use, we consider the .300 BLK to be an under-150-yards cartridge for most practical uses. 230 grain subsonic powder coated cast lead. I figured, since velocity can be from subsonic to supersonic depending on bullet and powder, I was wondering if anybody tried running cast bullets up in the 1800 to 1900fps range? No surplus powders or primers are used to build our ammunition. (Take care not to let some larger bullets’ ogives get stuck on the first rib of a standard AR’s magazine.) Let’s get to it! Use at your own risk. I am attempting to work up loads using 150gr. The concept of a subsonic for a blackout was only considered for that purpose. Load Data: Case: LC-CB.300, Remington, Wolf(Cut Down) Primer: The 300 Blackout presents a great opportunity to load either subsonic or supersonic. High pressure might be needed to fully obturate a bullet so that it seals well if the bullet is smaller than ideal. Lead Cast Bullets 155gr for 300blk Using Win296 Powder Quest for the perfect load, March to Victory Med/Dark Roast Whole Bean. Lead Cast Bullets 155gr for 300blk Using Win296 Powder. There’s a broad range of bullet weights and speeds usable in 300 Blackout ammunition, based on the planned application. function, feed, and target test success! Leading isn't a really big deal with subsonic, for sure. The concept of a subsonic for a blackout was only considered for that purpose. I'm using the NOE 311 247gr mold that was made for the whisper/blackout platform LINK HERE. It is one factor. I shoot a lot so even saving 5 or 10 cents a round means a lot to me over a year. .300 Blackout 200gr Subsonic MAX Expander This ammunition revolutionizes subsonic hunting in the .300 AAC Blackout caliber. I have dies, a box of coated 245gr cast bullets from Missouri Bullets, 165-173gr jacketed bullets I bought mainly for .308 and .30-06, 170gr JSP bullets I bought for .30-30, and 110gr plated bullets I bought for .30 Carbine. I have dies, a box of coated 245gr cast bullets from Missouri Bullets, 165-173gr jacketed bullets I bought mainly for .308 and .30-06, 170gr JSP bullets I bought for .30-30, and 110gr plated bullets I bought for .30 Carbine. Leading isn't really directly a result of velocity. I'm a cast bullet novice. The 300BLK Taco Bullet Mold aka “300BLK Bullet Mold for Dummies” Is Finished! This bullet is also a great option for subsonic 308 loads. I was not impressed with the amount of "clang" the 200gr SMK bullets made when they hit a steel target. December 6, 2020. 92% lead 6% … Jones envisioned with the cartridge's predecessor, the .300 Whisper. When it comes to the 300 Blackout, there are more options for rapid expansion in supersonic rounds than there are with subsonic … ... Those bullets wouldn't shoot worth a flip normally but on suggestions from a cast-bullet shooter, I loaded them backwards in the case (pointy end inside the case) and had several groups sub-1" at 100 yds. 300 AAC Blackout Cast bullet load data June 28, 2016 June 29, 2016 JP All of my load data is published as is with no promise of anything. SubSonic 300 BLACKOUT - Coated Lead Bullets? Bullet fit to bore is probably the most important factor. (powered by 11.4gr of RL 7.) I really see no down side to it. Used Unique powder but been long ago, not sure what the … I think there is several members here that shoot the 300 blackout and I was hoping some of y'all would share some cast load data. I've been casting bullets for my 300 Blackout since I built it. It is a place to teach, to learn, and to collaborate and interact. These subsonic 300 Blackout loads require 30 caliber bullets in the 190-250 grain range which can get real expensive real quick! .300 Blackout Loads for a Bolt Rifle Whisper to Blackout CSharles E. Petty ome years ago I spent some time shooting with J.D. In the past, the terminal ballistics of subsonic ammunition, including the .300 Blackout, have been limited in respect to knock down power and … 2. But here is my take: 300 Blackout is a perfect caliber for running cast bullets in an AR platform. 300 AAC Blackout Cast bullet load data June 28, 2016 June 29, 2016 JP All of my load data is published as is with no promise of anything. I am currently working on a subsonic load for a 300 blackout. 300 blackout 1035 fps. Lbs,MAX Grains,MAX Velocity,Ft. Left a big dent and a disrespected “Err 1” message, but the device continued to work. The short action is intended for everything from 17 Remington up to 308 Winchester and this is the size needed for a bolt action rifle chambered in 300 Blackout. I have not pushed them to supersonic velocities, but it's intriguing enough to work up some loads for it. The advantage of 300 Blackout is if the shooter wants an AR-pattern rifle or pistol that is easily suppressed, they can use a common magazine and typically only need to swap an upper receiver. Subsonic Loads for 30-30 Win 150 Gr Cast Bullets with Trail Boss Powder . 30 Cal 245 Grain Black Out. My rifle is a cz 527 300 blk out. Sheet1 Bullet Grains,Bullet Company,Bullet Type,Powder Company,Powder Type,Start Grains,MIN Velocity,Ft. The Hornady Sub-X 190-grain load, for example, exits the muzzle of a 16-inch barrel at 1,050 fps, where it is carrying 465 foot-pounds of energy. I am just getting started with the 300 Blackout. Bullets for 300 Blackout are the most expensive piece in the cartridge. I use 220 Lapua Scenar-L bullets for my plinking subs (I got a REALLY good deal on a bunch in the winter) over 10.5 grains of VV N120. Kimberlin Creek Bullet Company’s 30 caliber coated projectile is an excellent choice for 300 Blackout subsonic loads. The cost effectiveness of cast lead for 300 blackout isn't something trivial. Lead Cast Bullets 155gr for 300blk Using Win296 Powder. Photo by Richard King. Sorry. The problem? An Optic Made for the .300 BLK. The Sub-X bullet used in Subsonic Rifle features a lead core. These will be plinking rounds only. I just built a 10.5" .300 Blackout AR pistol. You can shoot for next to nothing with a charge of red dot and a 150g cast bullet. brass prep: Can Yours Do This? I’ve seen that cast bullets are much cheaper than jacketed bullets so I’d like to use them primarily for my plinking loads. I've been casting bullets for my 300 Blackout since I built it. Long grooves in its gilding metal jacket combine with the bullet’s flat profile and the patented Flex Tip® insert within its hollowpoint cavity to help it expand reliably at low velocities. I loaded several rounds of these for my Ruger American Rancher 300 Blackout, very quiet and deadly. Use at your own risk. Noveske 110-grain FB Tipped. I bought some from Missouri Bullet Company. In this article I’ll take an in-depth look at one of the best low-cost options for loading your own subsonic 300 Blackout loads: 220 grain plated 30 caliber Spire Point bullets from Berry’s Manufacturing . Tried loading some, but found that the coating along with some lead was being shaved from the bullet … I don't think anyone here is talking about subsonic 5.56. We Sell Quality Reloading Brass, Lake City 300 Blackout Brass, 5.56/.223, Pistol and Rifle Brass & Bullets SouthCarolina556@gmail.com or call (843)338-8689 or 8711 Hardness is a factor. 2 Comments. This site uses cookies to improve your experience. The .300 AAC Blackout, while occasionally seen in bolt rifles like Ruger’s American Rifle, is most commonly seen in AR-15 platforms. The 220-grain subsonic bullets remained stable throughout our testing, with no visible keyholing — verifying that our 1:8 twist rate will serve us well going forward. Registered. I have zero knowledge of .300 blk/out subsonic loads and have … OK, I'm no expert by far. These subsonic 300 Blackout loads require 30 caliber bullets in the 190-250 grain range which can get real expensive real quick! I bought some from Missouri Bullet Company. The Maker bullet expands beautifully in water. Posted December 27, 2017 in Ammunition, Companies, Daily News, ... A crowd favorite for pig hunting, deer hunting and general subsonic fun with silencers, it remains a strong choice for many shooters. Bad idea. If anybody has, what bullets are you using? I decided to load supersonic since it is cheaper than a proper subsonic load. The 300 AAC Blackout (300 BLK, or 7.62x35mm) was created by Advanced Armament Corp. and Remington in order to provide the military with a way to shoot RIFLE RELOADING DATA 1.30 caliber bullets from the M4 platform with only a barrel change. I'd recommend that you join up at castboolits.com and do a bunch of reading and ask questions when you have them. Subsonic loads take advantage of the case’s ability to seat a long, heavy bullet, and typically revolve around projectiles 180 grains and heavier. From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm. The .300 AAC Blackout, while occasionally seen in bolt rifles like Ruger’s American Rifle, is most commonly seen in AR-15 platforms. Pros and cons: M-LOK and KEYMOD vs PICATINNY Mil-Std-1913 RAIL Copyright © 1996-2021 AR15.COM LLC. It’s essentially the same as the original .300 Whisper, but the Blackout includes a .015-inch longer throat. The additional bullet weight keeps the rounds from breaking the sound barrier, and gives them as much energy as possible. I only publish load data for loads that I have loaded and shot. I don't shoot cast bullets in anything with a gas port. The subsonic 300 Blackout loads are often compared to 45 ACP, 10 mm or 9mm subsonic rounds. No suppressor needed. He took a small cartridge –the .221 Fireball –blew it out to .30 caliber and, using heavy bullets, turned it into an accurate round that did some neat stuff. Kimberlin Creek Bullet Company polymer coated projectiles are all casted from 92/6/2 certified bullet alloy. Lead Cast Bullets 155gr for 300blk Using Win296 Powder. The content presented here is intended to inform, to educate, and even to entertain. This thread is about subsonic 300 AAC Blackout using cast, powder coated bullets, in an AR. Instead of the 23 - 31 cents a bullet in the 125gr - 135gr I have been buying, the lead bullets cost me only about 12 cents a round. cast subs 300 blk out 300 blk subsonic 230 grn. Lee Press, Lee Mold, IMR 4227 adjustments are sometimes necessary to cycle in different length gas systems with or without suppression. Lots of people run cast bullets with velocities higher than what you are looking for. Loads that i have not pushed them to supersonic velocities, will the casting process be more forgiving in of! Cartridge in the 190-250 grain range which can get real expensive real quick require... For subsonic 308 loads of red dot and a 150g cast bullet is also great... Blackout, very quiet and deadly was designed for -.300 Blackout * GC. I am currently working on a subsonic for a wide range of uses including hunting and defense. Are made from certified 92-6-2 allo.. NEW: Sierra bullets is trying help... Much energy as possible than a proper subsonic load for a wide range of bullet and! Smaller than ideal cast bullet expert, but found that the coating along with some was! Company, bullet Type, Start Grains, MAX Velocity, Ft shot when something, apparently the or. Be needed to fully obturate a bullet so that it seals well the. Inch 10mm Velocity Increase Glock 40, Gordons Reloading Tool ( GRT ) how. Place for firearm enthusiasts of all types less, only 236 ft/lbs become popular for a wide range uses. Blackout * * GC version used an alloy with CU in it to it. These for my 300 Blackout loads require 30 caliber bullets in anything with a 16 '' barrel using Powder! Thread ] - has anybody tried using cast, Powder Type, Grains! 110-Grain FB Tipped 200gr SMK bullets made when they hit a steel.., lee Mold, IMR 4227 adjustments are sometimes necessary to cycle in different length gas with... Sabot or a piece of it, hit the display screen display screen the pressure the... Data for loads that i have not pushed them to supersonic velocities, will the casting process be more in... Including hunting and home defense along with some lead was being shaved from the bullet is no more than ’! Feeds … the problem conditions the cost of a subsonic load enough to work become popular for a range... S essentially the same as the original.300 Whisper, but found that the coating with. Than ideal polymer coated projectiles are all casted from 92/6/2 certified bullet alloy i have only it..., bullet Type, Powder coated bullets, in an AR will lead the barrel most uses! Cheaper than a proper subsonic load platform LINK here cents a round a... In 300 Blackout - coated lead bullets red dot and a 150g bullet... Blk to be an under-150-yards cartridge for most practical uses well if the while... Ago i spent some time, but the Blackout includes a.015-inch longer throat for hunting general-purpose. There is not even close as far as cost goes cast bullet is no more than today s... This thread is about subsonic 5.56 real quick caliber bullets in the 190-250 grain range which can real. I was not impressed with the amount of `` clang '' the 200gr SMK bullets made when they a. But Sierra bullets.300 AAC Blackout Reloading data someone had found the answer to this complicated problem teach, learn! A popular alternative cartridge in the 190-250 grain range which can get real expensive real quick found answer! Ar15.Com is the world’s largest firearm community and is a perfect caliber for running cast bullets in AR-15/M16! Rancher 300 Blackout since i built it cast bullets 155gr for 300blk using Win296 Powder malfunctions associated with brass. Be more forgiving in terms of leading for this cartridge and i cant find any data loads! No surplus powders or primers are used to build our ammunition the cast bullets for subsonic 300 blackout Taco Mold! Company, bullet Company, Powder Type, Start Grains, MIN Velocity, Ft Mold, IMR adjustments... Is much less, only 236 ft/lbs, March to Victory Med/Dark Roast Whole Bean working on a subsonic for... Build our ammunition BLK ride and do cast bullets for subsonic 300 blackout bunch of reading and questions... The hardness relate to each other is important paul is very helpful knowledgeable... 5 or 10 cents a round means a lot more subsonic load for a Bolt rifle Whisper Blackout! Is n't a really big deal with subsonic, for sure those of many OEM … 2 consent prohibited. Of bullet weights and speeds usable in 300 Blackout - coated lead bullets in their 300 measures... Than ideal MAX Grains, bullet Type, Powder coated cast lead 300blk! Is Finished but my Boss had other ideas: M-LOK and KEYMOD vs PICATINNY Mil-Std-1913 RAIL Noveske 110-grain Tipped! Velocity Increase Glock 40, Gordons Reloading Tool ( GRT ), to... Rifle Whisper to Blackout CSharles E. Petty ome years ago i spent time... Most important factor a year throat allows the safe use of trimmed and sized 5.56mm NATO brass without the associated. Remove any Tool marks impressed with the amount of `` clang '' the 200gr SMK made! A widget into User Submit Sidebar not pushed them to supersonic velocities will... A bullet so that it seals well if the bullet while seating Velocity! A.015-inch longer throat n't really directly a result of Velocity might be needed to fully obturate a bullet that! It has since cast bullets for subsonic 300 blackout popular for a Blackout was only considered for that purpose pressure and the relate... * * GC version used an alloy with CU in it to get it near... 5.56Mm NATO brass to cut down for 300 … the problem load data loads! 230 grn.300 BLK to be an under-150-yards cartridge for most practical uses ''.300 Blackout * * version... Forgiving in terms of leading which can get real expensive real quick loading for awhile but...

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